Listened to that talk. You highlighted well the difference between the Lutheran and Reformed views on justification. For Reformed emphasis is "union with Christ" and the ordu salutis. Interesting interview. But I thought the Finnish Lutheran/Orthodox view also emphasised "union with Christ"? Also not too sure if the LCMS folks will agree with you on the ontological aspect of justification. Have you read Kurt Marquart's robust defense of objective justification here http://cyberbrethren.com/2012/05/24/kurt-marquart-on-objective-justification/#more-15416
William W.Schumacher's critique of the Finnish Lutheran view in his book https://wipfandstock.com/store/Who_Do_I_Say_That_You_Are_Anthropology_and_the_Theology_of_Theosis_in_the_Finnish_School_of_Tuomo_Mannermaa/
Erik Heen has contributed a Lutheran response to the New Perspective of Paul on justification conversations.
I have to say I was surprised to hear you say that for the Reformed sanctification doesn't flow from justification. That's the only way I've heard it taught in my 10+ years in Presbyterian churches.
Martin- The Finnish school does emphasize union with Christ heavily. I think union with Christ has an important place, but Christ for us always has precedence over Christ in us. Also, what we both mean by union with Christ is very different.
I will read Marquart's defense of objective justification and let you know my thoughts. I do realize that some LCMS folks will disagree with parts of my presentation. I have already had a debate with one over whether or not my approach is Osiandrian.
I have not previously encountered Schumacher's critique but now that I have I will certainly read it.
David- Some Reformed theologians certainly do teach that sanctification flows out of justification. Unfortunately in an interview like this I don't have the time to distinguish various strains of Reformed thought as I would like to.
Lane Tipton has often made this very point, that a primary point of disagreement between the Reformed and Lutheran theologies is whether sanctification flows out of justification or union with Christ. I find this to be the view of Calvin.
There are those who disagree, such as the White Horse Inn crowd, but ultimately I'm not sure that it's consistent with previous Reformed tradition.
Mr. Cooper, Your interview on Issues Etc. was very helpful. For the past nine months our pastor has allowed a layman to teach the adult S.S. class. They meet weekly and the pastor was giving him his seminary books to put the class together which was call,"The order of Salvation". He uses many of R.C.Spoul's videos. Both my husband and myself found much that he said troubling. The point you made about separating Justification from Sanctification hit what he was saying right on the head. We have been in churches that do this on a practical basis and always focusing on what we do for Christ instead of what He did, does and will do for us really does get things very confused. One person this layman held up as an example to "Spirit Filled living" was Hanna Whitall Smith. We knew more about her because we had read some of her books,then the teacher. At the end of her life she believed in Universalism and was definitely a heretic. All of us need to pay more attention to the Word of God than to our emotions, mystical inner “revelations” and fad doctrines. Sadly we attend an LCMS church that should know better. I think I might tell my pastor about your interview and review of the book. Great stuff Pastor Cooper. Thank you.
8 comments:
Jordan,
Listened to that talk. You highlighted well the difference between the Lutheran and Reformed views on justification. For Reformed emphasis is "union with Christ" and the ordu salutis. Interesting interview. But I thought the Finnish Lutheran/Orthodox view also emphasised "union with Christ"? Also not too sure if the LCMS folks will agree with you on the ontological aspect of justification. Have you read Kurt Marquart's robust defense of objective justification here
http://cyberbrethren.com/2012/05/24/kurt-marquart-on-objective-justification/#more-15416
William W.Schumacher's critique of the Finnish Lutheran view in his book
https://wipfandstock.com/store/Who_Do_I_Say_That_You_Are_Anthropology_and_the_Theology_of_Theosis_in_the_Finnish_School_of_Tuomo_Mannermaa/
Erik Heen has contributed a Lutheran response to the New Perspective of Paul on justification conversations.
Thanks. Look forward to learn more from you.
Regards,
Martin
Good stuff, thanks for this, you made some helpful points. Cheers
Good stuff, thanks for this, you made some helpful points. Cheers
I have to say I was surprised to hear you say that for the Reformed sanctification doesn't flow from justification. That's the only way I've heard it taught in my 10+ years in Presbyterian churches.
I might offer this, John Murray's article "Justification is the Foundation of Sanctification" as an example:
http://thesolasystem.blogspot.com/2012/01/john-murray-on-how-justification-is.html
Martin- The Finnish school does emphasize union with Christ heavily. I think union with Christ has an important place, but Christ for us always has precedence over Christ in us. Also, what we both mean by union with Christ is very different.
I will read Marquart's defense of objective justification and let you know my thoughts. I do realize that some LCMS folks will disagree with parts of my presentation. I have already had a debate with one over whether or not my approach is Osiandrian.
I have not previously encountered Schumacher's critique but now that I have I will certainly read it.
David- Some Reformed theologians certainly do teach that sanctification flows out of justification. Unfortunately in an interview like this I don't have the time to distinguish various strains of Reformed thought as I would like to.
Lane Tipton has often made this very point, that a primary point of disagreement between the Reformed and Lutheran theologies is whether sanctification flows out of justification or union with Christ. I find this to be the view of Calvin.
There are those who disagree, such as the White Horse Inn crowd, but ultimately I'm not sure that it's consistent with previous Reformed tradition.
Mr. Cooper,
Your interview on Issues Etc. was very helpful. For the past nine months our pastor has allowed a layman to teach the adult S.S. class. They meet weekly and the pastor was giving him his seminary books to put the class together which was call,"The order of Salvation". He uses many of R.C.Spoul's videos. Both my husband and myself found much that he said troubling. The point you made about separating Justification from Sanctification hit what he was saying right on the head. We have been in churches that do this on a practical basis and always focusing on what we do for Christ instead of what He did, does and will do for us really does get things very confused. One person this layman held up as an example to "Spirit Filled living" was Hanna Whitall Smith. We knew more about her because we had read some of her books,then the teacher. At the end of her life she believed in Universalism and was definitely a heretic. All of us need to pay more attention to the Word of God than to our emotions, mystical inner “revelations” and fad doctrines. Sadly we attend an LCMS church that should know better.
I think I might tell my pastor about your interview and review of the book. Great stuff Pastor Cooper. Thank you.
In Christ, Mrs. Gorton.
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