Yeah, that was pretty bad. He sadly mischaracterizes the Lutheran (and classical Anglican) view of the sacraments and thus ignores their place within the life of faith.
I have to confess that that was a pretty sad and pathetic straw man argument.
In fairness, not all Reformed are like that. Matter of fact, a great many of them try to minimize the difference in the sacraments and other things in order to say "See? We're not that far off from each other!"
But that guy you linked to doesn't want answers. He just wants a fight.
Thankfully, Steve, is not representative of confessional Calvinism. Some of those guys are down right irenic. Unless that is by not spending too much time on blogs letting Reason have her talkative and omniscient way.
No the confessional Calvinists I know are for the most part much more respectful and thoughtful than this Steve fellow. But unfortunately, it is the people like this that are apt to contact you when you critique Calvinism.
Samwise, it is true that Calvin did sign the Augsburg Confession. However he didn't sign it as is. He signed the Variata.
What's the difference? See for yourself:
The Unaltered Augsburg Confession states:
"Concerning the Lord's Supper, they teach that the body and blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed (communicated) to those that eat in the Lord's Supper. And they disapprove of those that teach otherwise."
Altered Augsburg Confession states:
"Concerning the Lord's Supper, they teach that 'with' bread and wine are truly exhibited the body and blood of Christ to those that eat in the Lord's Supper."
Confessional Lutheran churches will usually specify that they agree to the Unaltered Augsburg Confession as opposed to the altered Variata.
Calvin worked under the authority and approved of the original Augsburg. There were obviously things he preferred in the Variata. He also told other Reformed pastors that they should not hesitate to sign the Augsburg Confession in both its manifestations. But then he also said his understanding of the Lord's Supper was identical to that of Melancthon and if Melancthon told Calvin of any deviation he, Calvin, would modify his doctrine accordingly.
Well then, it's a wonder why everyone isn't flocking from confessional Lutheranism to the Reformed church. Doh! What a terrible post he made. Thank you David Cochcrane for trying to reason with that blockhead.
now my brain hurts
ReplyDeleteYeah, that was pretty bad. He sadly mischaracterizes the Lutheran (and classical Anglican) view of the sacraments and thus ignores their place within the life of faith.
ReplyDeleteDoubting Thomas
Wow. You can't argue with that level of ignorance.
ReplyDeleteI have to confess that that was a pretty sad and pathetic straw man argument.
ReplyDeleteIn fairness, not all Reformed are like that. Matter of fact, a great many of them try to minimize the difference in the sacraments and other things in order to say "See? We're not that far off from each other!"
But that guy you linked to doesn't want answers. He just wants a fight.
Absolute ignorance.
ReplyDeleteIt's interseting that Calvin could ascribe to the Augsburg and even sign it! But today's wannabes are less fair!
ReplyDeleteThankfully, Steve, is not representative of confessional Calvinism. Some of those guys are down right irenic. Unless that is by not spending too much time on blogs letting Reason have her talkative and omniscient way.
ReplyDeleteNo the confessional Calvinists I know are for the most part much more respectful and thoughtful than this Steve fellow. But unfortunately, it is the people like this that are apt to contact you when you critique Calvinism.
ReplyDeleteHmm.. I pointed out that he put together a caricature of Lutheranism, and my post didn't stand...
ReplyDeleteWell, that's not surprising. Someone who talks like this doesn't want serious, thoughtful interaction.
ReplyDelete@Samwise
ReplyDeleteSamwise, it is true that Calvin did sign the Augsburg Confession. However he didn't sign it as is. He signed the Variata.
What's the difference? See for yourself:
The Unaltered Augsburg Confession states:
"Concerning the Lord's Supper, they teach that the body and blood of Christ are truly present, and are distributed (communicated) to those that eat in the Lord's Supper. And they disapprove of those that teach otherwise."
Altered Augsburg Confession states:
"Concerning the Lord's Supper, they teach that 'with' bread and wine are truly exhibited the body and blood of Christ to those that eat in the Lord's Supper."
Confessional Lutheran churches will usually specify that they agree to the Unaltered Augsburg Confession as opposed to the altered Variata.
Calvin worked under the authority and approved of the original Augsburg. There were obviously things he preferred in the Variata. He also told other Reformed pastors that they should not hesitate to sign the Augsburg Confession in both its manifestations. But then he also said his understanding of the Lord's Supper was identical to that of Melancthon and if Melancthon told Calvin of any deviation he, Calvin, would modify his doctrine accordingly.
ReplyDeleteWell then, it's a wonder why everyone isn't flocking from confessional Lutheranism to the Reformed church. Doh! What a terrible post he made. Thank you David Cochcrane for trying to reason with that blockhead.
ReplyDelete